Comments on Thoughts; A Flame: The Blessed Life review

The church that I most frequently attend has a you...

2012-01-15T04:16:55.244-06:00

The church that I most frequently attend has a youth group I am (and may become-"was") apart of. I attended said youth group yesterday and their message to us 18-29 year olds was on the utter importance of tithing. They referenced this book and actually gave out 75 free copies to us members. I'very read through a good 50 pages already and am happy to see your review, Chris, is one I agree with. Your review and biblical backings were a great example as to why my church and do many are down right misleading people about tithing. All you have to do as a person to answer any questions concerning tithing is read the book of Hebrews!! It states it all there, very quickly- that we should be glad givers, content with what we have- what more could you want it NEED than Jesus Christ Himself?! So, thank you do much for the review

Hi, I just wanted to thank Chris for such a great ...

2011-09-25T23:22:41.447-05:00

Hi,
I just wanted to thank Chris for such a great review of this book. My parents were recently exposed to a teaching by Robert Morris and were singing his praises to me. The very title "The Blessed Life", makes me nervous as I am a "recovering Charismatic" to paraphrase Philip Yancey. I grew up in "Word of Faith" churches, and though I met people with good hearts, and sincerly held beliefs, I have learned this does not equal sound, Biblical doctrine. I completely agree with what I got from the book review, which is that the blessing God "guarantees" is our relationship with Christ and His forgiveness of our sins. Though God can and does bless some in a financial way, this is not the sole indicator of someone's status with God. Though I had never heard of Morris prior to this week, I did attend Bible college with his worship pastor, and I will say that I have nothing but respect and admiration for Thomas Miller based on my interactions with him. However, as I stated earlier, kindness and sincerity does not make one's belief system true. My biggest problem with this sort of teaching is that I feel it sets people up to believe that God has let them down if they do not end up financially prosperous. The ironic thing is that my parents have been consistent tithers and sacrificial givers for at least 30 years, and yet I sense they think that they must have missed something, since Morris promises such extravagant financial blessing by living in such a manner. I would say God has blessed them in many other ways, but they are still poor, and perhaps they always will be, and that is okay according to the Bible I read.

Thanks again for such a thoughtful, well-balanced review!
Hope B.

Although I have not read the book yet, as I have j...

2011-01-23T13:52:00.594-06:00

Although I have not read the book yet, as I have just purchased it, I would like to add to the discussion.
One point comes to mind when reading the interactions here; that there is a big difference between boasting about something you've done and telling the story of something you've done.
I believe this whole issues speaks to the heart of the matter at hand. Which is that the actions you do may be interpreted this way or that, (hopefully in the way you intended them, but not always..) but it is what is in your heart that counts most.
Consider this passage from Matthew 5:15-16: "15. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

This passage of the bible does not tell us to hide our good works in fear that they may be mistaken for boasting. We are to understand from the passage that our good works can indeed shine brightly as long as God comes first in our lives and He recieves the glory of our good works... and I may boldly add.. the glory from our first fruits as well.

This is what the majority of the reviews I have read seem to agree upon. Now, I will go and hopefully enjoy the reading of this book, but as always I will search the Scriptures to find and varify any final answer that I seek.

Thanks!
~k

Anonymous, First, thanks for clarifying why you s...

2010-12-10T07:09:00.547-06:00

Anonymous,

First, thanks for clarifying why you stayed anonymous; I do appreciate that.

Second, I'm glad to hear that Robert Morris is as generous as he sounds. As I noted in my review, this was a thoroughly ambiguous book. Generosity is good, but the expectations engendered by reading this book aren't. I have no doubt of Morris' sincerity; it was his handling of Scripture that most troubled me, and the implications of his message—and of course, his boasting. Again, I appreciate that both in the book and from what you have written, this seems to be aimed at glorifying God. Even so, I ultimately have to conclude that he wold be better off were he to follow Jesus' teaching: don't talk about when you give. There's simply too much potential for boasting in self in the midst of it.

Thanks for sharing your perspective; it's always neat to hear from someone actually involved or familiar with the person behind a book.

I Stumbled on this blog by doing a gut check about...

2010-12-10T01:17:36.644-06:00

I Stumbled on this blog by doing a gut check about my church. I love reading other people's thoughts on various things. Great review of the book and there were great responses to each comment.

This is where I add my two cents. One of the most challenging questions I have to ask myself everyday is, "Is it more important on what I say, or how people perceive it"? I battle with this because although I'm trying to say the right thing, does it really matter if they hear something totally different. My wife is a teacher she always corrects me and uses this example when I pose this question... She always tells me how important a punctuation is in a sentence... "Let's eat Grandma" vs "Let's eat, Grandma!"

I say all that to say this...Immediately when reading the Title/Subtitle of the book, I think "Prosperity Gospel". Without hesitation, I look at this book with the wrong lens... I read the first couple of pages and I had to put it down and clear my thoughts so I could read this with an open mind...

Over the past few years, I've had the opportunity to see Pastor Robert Morris at a more personal level. Being able to see him outside of the church, outside the congregation and in his very own home... Something a book (no matter how in depth, intriguing it is) can never truly convey is the heart of the author. I love seeing Pastor Robert give, and give, and give....Although, he tells his stories, I believe he has the right to since it is his book...right? But, with full compassion, I know that even within his own testimony he always boasts in the Lord... Always giving thanks...

Sorry I had to post this anonymous. Need to keep my anonymity. I'll check back to see other comments...

Thank You... Be Blessed

nospam2k: I appreciate your thoughtful responses,...

2010-05-19T21:01:52.430-05:00

nospam2k:

I appreciate your thoughtful responses, as well (even if I disagree!). Irenicism is in too short a supply in the blogosphere.

As to your points: I would simply point out that I never argued that poverty was the case for everyone. Rather, I said, "Many of the early churches were very poor, or had many members who were very poor. James and Paul both address churches where it is clear that financial hardship is normal for some of these people." Those sentences are undeniably true. Certainly there were many in the churches—and indeed, many churches—who were not poor. Otherwise, how could James scold the rich in the church for abusing the poor? But by the same token, there were still poor people in the church, and James says nothing of giving on their part to address their physical needs. Likewise, when Paul speaks regarding poverty, his admonition is never to give but to work.

And again, as I noted, how would Paul have had to learn to be content in times of poverty if the system works the way it is claimed to? Morris and many like him would have people believe that if they simply give more, they will have more. The reality is that poverty is and has been part of the lives of many believers who are giving faithfully, even beyond their abilities. Does God provide for our needs? Absolutely. But in America, "need" means nothing like what our needs really are. And it certainly has not looked like what many an impoverished giver throughout the world and throughout history might have hoped!

In short, I readily recognize that many in the church will be wealthy; at the same time, I recognize that many will be poor—and I ultimately reject the notion that our giving automatically means material receiving. Will we have "100-fold"? Yes, but that reward generally comes in two forms: spiritually and emotionally in this life, and in every way in the next.

Thank you for the conversation.

Chris, I appreciate that you respond to these post...

2010-05-15T20:43:01.839-05:00

Chris, I appreciate that you respond to these posts.

However, you are historically inaccurate concerning the financial state of the early church. Mainly, the disciples were not poor, neither were the early churches, and neither was Paul. Your picture of the 1st Century colors your outlook on money. Read very carefully the book of Acts and Paul's letters specifically and count the number of times money was distributed and money was needed. You will find the more money came from the early church then was received by the early church. Poor people aren't able to do that. The only time in the 1st Century that speaks of churches receiving money is during the time of "severe famine" in Jerusalem. Even that isn't a matter of poor churches but severe famine. Are we to assume that those who were hammered by hurricane Katrina were poor? Not in the least. But they needed relief during that time. And where did the "relief" (money) come from (back to the Jerusalem church)? The surrounding churches! Where did all those poor people get the money? They were not poor.

The disciples did not impoverish themselves. They traded occupations. it was their calling specifically. Jesus did not call all his follows to leave their occupations. (For example, he never told Zacchaeus to leave his employment. In fact he only gave half his goods to the poor and Jesus thought that was a great thing.) By leaving their employment to preach the gospel, they lost their source of income, but they didn't take a vow of poverty. They relied on God's provision through faith and most of those men became supported by the church.

To say Paul was poor is really lacking in biblical understanding. Read Paul's letter to Philemon. Paul specifically says "v18 But if he has wronged you or owes anything, put that on my account." How is the impoverished Apostle going to repay? He is not impoverished.

Please don't take my responses as tit for tat as that is not my heart. Bible exposition is my calling in life.

I think if you read through the New Testament without a predisposition towards poverty, and read the historical background that is provided by many excellent bible historians (Josephus as example) you will find that Jesus did not build his church on a foundation of poverty.

Just another little piece of history. In the home town (to this day) of James son of Alphaeus is an inscription written of thanks to James for his "significant contributions" made the city. It seems that James was from a wealthy family according to our tour guide and had often made such contributions throughout the years.

I agree with nospam2k, he has hit the nail on the ...

2010-04-27T18:55:32.134-05:00

I agree with nospam2k, he has hit the nail on the head! God is good all the time. I have and always will give the "firstfruits" to God. He can bless me in the ways he sees fit, rather it be financial or otherwise.

Comment notification helps! :) On Paul, you'r...

2010-03-09T17:09:50.943-06:00

Comment notification helps! :)

On Paul, you're stretching the text well beyond what it covers. Matthew 6 is expressly addressing the issue of giving, something Paul never goes into regarding what he himself gives. Further, Paul notes whenever he is "boasting" that he is doing so foolishly, so as to make a point. I might be more lenient with Morris if he likewise called himself a fool for even bringing it up, but instead he gave himself a written pat on the back and directly defied Scriptural injunctions against talking about one's own giving.

While I recognize where you're coming from regarding the allegedly-financial nature of Jesus' promises, I ultimately disagree, and quite deeply, based on the testimony of those who Jesus was addressing when he spoke of receiving one hundred-fold. None of them had money to speak of. The apostles never had much money; certainly Peter never owned a hundred fishing boats, though that's exactly what he and his brothers had left, or anything close.

Many of the early churches were very poor, or had many members who were very poor. James and Paul both address churches where it is clear that financial hardship is normal for some of these people. Paul lived in deep poverty much of the time, to the point that he was incredibly grateful for the gift the Philippians sent him—and noted immediately that he had learned to be content in times of wealth and poverty. If you and Morris are to be believed, that situation of poverty simply shouldn't have happened...

And what about all the men and women today who give and do not receive? Is God's promise void to them? (I know those people, by the way.) Of course not! But they are, as Jesus says elsewhere, storing up for themselves "treasures in heaven," where moth and rust and thief have no power. We receive help from the body of Christ, where above all we have friends and family that fill the holes from those left behind.

Yes, we should give, and sacrificially. And yes, God will provide for our needs as we do so. But only our needs, not our desires—and those are vastly different things.

Regarding the rich young ruler, you're right that Jesus does not condemn the having of money. Nor do I. I do, however, think the passage pretty unambiguously points out that money is a deep hindrance to the gospel's work in our hearts. Moreover, there is nothing in the passage that suggests that the man would receive more wealth if he came and followed Jesus... to the contrary: if that were so, his giving up his wealth would be no obstacle to his following Christ at all. The only reason it is an obstacle is because the expectation was that Jesus' followers would have little, not much.

To sum up, as I said in my original review, Morris says a lot of good things. They're just mixed with a lot of bad, especially in the way he handles Scripture.

I'm surprised that you responded to such an ol...

2010-03-09T15:16:52.834-06:00

I'm surprised that you responded to such an old post ;) Anyway, I'll quickly make 2 points. #1 Declaring your good works before men is different then teaching on a subject and using yourself as an example. The Apostle Paul does this many times in scripture. A quick example is when Paul boldly states "I labored more abundantly then they all." Yes, he states "not I but Christ in me", but if MT 6 is to be applied then Paul was wrong to even state the case, as clearly he is letting the right hand know what the left hand is doing, which I'm sure you will agree cannot be true. Morris is also doing this. Teaching by example. #2 The rich young ruler gets quoted out of context a lot. Jesus' command to him was a swap of an already gained temporal riches for eternal riches; of which I will call phase 2 of "the blessed life" being able to give back the blessing God has given in order to gain a greater blessing in eternity. BUT, not to be disconnected from further blessing in this life. Remember, when Peter states just following the departure of the rich young ruler "we have given up everything to follow you, what will we get" Jesus didn't say "don't talk like that, just be happy with eternity". He specifically says "no who has given up x,y,z shall receive x,y,z X100!!!! IN THIS LIFE and eternal life. You state God may or may not choose to bless us financially as we give, but God states emphatically that he PROMISES he will bless us financially. I completely agree with you about the problem with "stuff" in America but that doesn't apply in this context because it is the continual giving away of stuff. Think of it this way. What if everytime you got stuff you tried to give it away and the faster you gave it away the faster you got more, do you really think that you would be all that excited about getting more? That is the principle to consider. So long as you keep pouring out the oil, there will be more oil. But when you stop pouring the oil stops. The blessing is in distribution not receiving. But distribution can only continue through receiving. If every church (pastors AND members) would apply the biblical principles found in Rober Morris' book, preachers wouldn't have to keep begging for money for half the service.

nospam2k—don't be too quick to assume that I&#...

2010-01-29T16:57:58.526-06:00

nospam2k—don't be too quick to assume that I've not seen God's provision in my life, nor that my disagreement with Robert Morris has anything at all to do with my "balancing" habits regarding finances. It doesn't. I have a hard time seeing Morris' continual references to how God has blessed Him—while always talking about how much he has given—as anything but direct disobedience to Jesus' instruction in the Sermon on the Mount:

"Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.

"Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you."
Matthew 6:1-4

That, combined with the misinterpretations I saw throughout the book, led to my fairly middle-of-the-road review—a generous take on Morris's teaching in this book, in my opinion.

As I noted multiple times in the course of the review, I'm all in favor of giving abundantly to God and trusting Him to provide our needs. My concern was that Morris couched "meeting our needs" in a sense that goes far beyond Biblical language. Being comfortable, having nice cars, and living the American dream is, in many regards, a stumbling block to the Gospel—unless you think that Jesus' words about the rich young (Matthew 19:16-30) ruler aren't equally applicable to we Americans who are richer than anyone in the world!

God may or may not choose to bless us financially as we give. Morris, like many in the Prosperity Gospel movement, leaves no room for poverty for those who give generously... but Jesus does.

I know I'm responding to a very old blog but j...

2010-01-29T16:38:05.148-06:00

I know I'm responding to a very old blog but just in case anyone else may fall upon this. Though I don't know the author, I can safely say he has never experienced what Robert Morris is describing in his book. In a time where Americans give only 3% of their income to God, it is very clear that people do not understand the truth of relying on Jesus to provide for their needs. The point of the book is not reliance on God to provide money but reliance on God to provide period. The blogger assumes this to be money because money is the method whereby God meets our needs. To say we should rely on God, scripture, etc is to assume that God doesn't use money. Because I know what it's like to go from "rags to riches" spiritually speaking through giving as described by Robert Morris, to say that it is self serving or unbiblical is just ridiculous because it requires great faith and great reliance on God to give in that manner. The truth is that most Christian really don't believe God will meet their needs so they resort to believing "balancing" doctrines that accommodate their unbelief and continue to talk theoretically. It has always amazed me how there can be people who testify of God doing great things through their lives and when they try to let other people know so they can experience the same thing, they are accused of being boastful.

Good post and good review. The sad part is that ma...

2009-08-27T10:08:54.066-05:00

Good post and good review.
The sad part is that many people will read this without applying discernment and take it as "gospel", so to speak, then be disappointed when what may have proved true to this point in the author's life, does not prove out true for them. As you pointed out, many give sacrificially, but do not receive financial prosperity because of it. Rather, I believe scripture teaches that if getting because you give is your motive for giving, it is a wicked motive.

Good post. However, I personally know that using C...

2009-08-27T07:31:37.813-05:00

Good post. However, I personally know that using Chris Krycho's reading time as a base measure for your own reading can prove disappointing (he can read exceptionally quickly).